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 Post subject: antiX-17 - stretch
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:03 am 
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Every new release sees a fattening of our base (Debian).

A first pre-alpha build of antiX-full based on stretch (soon to be new stable) adds 100MB to the iso size making it c800MB, therefore no longer fitting on a cd,

So how many actually use hardware that ONLY boots from cd?
How many boot from dvd?
How many boot from usb?
How many boot another way (fromiso/fromhdd)?

Should we keep full to still fit on a cd?
If so, removing libreoffice gets the iso down to c705MB, so we would have to trim the fat elsewhere as well.

Post thoughts, comments, ideas

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 Post subject: Re: antiX-17 - stretch
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:40 am 
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USB liveboot is the only method I've ever used/recommended.
The current "full" iso size already rules out toram usage on many of our older PCs, but it's easy to remaster a smaller version.

LibreOffice is available as an AppImage.
Liveboot users could side-load that, on demand, instead of having it reside in the iso.

If you post the "c705Mb" candidate to sf, I'll set to work finding "cruft" which can be removed
(scripted removal, following package installation, late in the build process)
Based on past trials, I'm confident that we can easily remove 25-30Mb.
"Cruft", as in, *.pyc files, changelog.gz files, /usr/share/info/* content...


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 Post subject: Re: antiX-17 - stretch
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 4:23 pm 
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I use an USB pendrive for install Antix full in my two laptops.

Edit:

I think some people need a CD for old machines. I also can install an Antix base and add all the software I need after the installation if necessary.


Last edited by Aleph on Tue Feb 07, 2017 5:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: antiX-17 - stretch
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 4:25 pm 
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usb only, although I do need to use a plop-floppy (yes, floppy disk) to install over usb1.1 on my old sony. Of course, its starting to push the limits...its 15 years old afterall.

even that machine has a dvd drive though, but not a dvd burner.

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 Post subject: Re: antiX-17 - stretch
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 5:19 pm 
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Primarily, I use pendrives, but do have dvd drives on some older machines, none of my machines dating back to 2002 need a CD sized image.

I personally, prefer the 'base' option, as I don't use Open Office at all, nor some of the other stuff that comes with 'full'.

Having said that, may be we only need one CD sized option, which could be 'base', most people using really old hardware know how to install software for themselves.

This could just be wifi & a web browser, so that internet access is easily obtained, so as to be able to grab whatever programs are wanted.

Doing it this way would take away the necesssity to keep under CD/700mb size, & allow 'full' to continue to be what you think it should be. That should easily fit on a DVD/4gb sized media.

Just my thoughts. :)

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 Post subject: Re: antiX-17 - stretch
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 5:41 pm 
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I prefer core and use CD and stick.

How about mastering one image that fits on CD and another one "too big for CD" and count the download? For the next release you can decide.


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 Post subject: Re: antiX-17 - stretch
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 5:54 pm 
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You know me. When in doubt. I keep a PLOP Floppy and PLOP CD for installing giganto live isos on USB drives to old Panasonic CF-48,
IBM T23 and any other non boot DVD/USB bios drive laptops.

If it gets a little reckless on iso size because the world has passed us by.

I guess I have one more tutorial in me I can whisk up using AntiX 17 on usb and a PLOP iso in conjunction and we can put it in installation tips. I have just been a little quiet with the how to's because of forum burn out <alanarchy> and biker life style duties/druthers.

But I am much better now. Let me know when the iso is ready to grab by me and I will do a tutorial on my Panasonic with no DVD drive, No usb boot capable bios. Just a floppy drive and a usb 1.1 slot.

Then after the floppy tutorial. I will do another showing using a PLOP CD with usb 1.1.

It won't be flashy you tube or some other other form . Just my usual screenshots with me jaw jacking between the shots.

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 Post subject: Re: antiX-17 - stretch
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 6:04 pm 
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USB mostly if I can.


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 Post subject: Re: antiX-17 - stretch
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 6:19 pm 
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...use hardware that ONLY boots from cd?
No, although burning a CD is the fallback method that has never failed.
When working with old kit I usually start with this method.

...boot from dvd?
This can be problematical on old kit. Many have a DVD drive but not a DVD burner.

...boot from usb?
Old kit USBv1.1 can often do this (sometimes with the aid of PLOP). However, I have run across some v1.1 systems that don't work well (or at all) with USBv3 flash drives

...boot another way (fromiso/fromhdd)?
Never

Here USB live mode is only used as a means of installing to hard disk. The exception to that is when a pristine as shipped environment is wanted, usually for testing purposes, or for insulation/self healing reasons when working in or browsing to untrusted locations. On old kit hard disk installation is preferable to running live.

If the judgement is ultimately the time has been reached to let go of the CD-ROM size constraint, how about the following as an idea...
Produce antiX-Full ISO at a size greater than 700MB.
Produce an ISO much smaller than 700MB holding all fundamental software used in the Full ISO version of antiX and forgoing all other apps.
  • Include X
  • Include Wireless Networking
  • Include an installer for hard disk and USB
  • Include 2 kernels 1xcurrent and 1xlegacy
Provide a mechanism to enable the user to tick a single check box to "Update and Upgrade to antiX Full" which will download and install all the packages.

Even better would be to present the single tick option together with an integral tick list showing what will be installed and which allows the user to deselect whatever is not wanted. In effect a custom installation of the Full version.

This latter idea is really just a reiteration of a similar idea I raised for (I think) antiX-12

Perhaps the Net-ISO lends itself to this.

Edit
Added kernels and net-iso ideas


Last edited by SamK on Tue Feb 07, 2017 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: antiX-17 - stretch
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 6:21 pm 
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SamK wrote:
If the judgement is ultimately the time has been reached to let go of the CD-ROM size constraint, how about the following as an idea...
Produce antiX-Full ISO at a size greater than 700MB.
Produce an ISO much smaller than 700MB holding all fundamental software used in the Full ISO version of antiX and forgoing all other apps.
  • Include X
  • Include Wireless Networking
  • Include an installer for hard disk and USB
Provide a mechanism to enable the user to tick a single check box to "Update and Upgrade to antiX Full" which will download and install all the packages.

Even better would be to present the single tick option together with an integral tick list showing what will be installed and which allows the user to deselect whatever is not wanted. In effect a custom installation of the Full version.

This latter idea is really just reiterating a similar idea I raised for (I think) antiX-12


I think this could be done relatively easily in the metapackage installer. its already built for individual items and a catagory checkbox.

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eeepc 904ha antix 15 32 bit (streaming media player)
sony laptop amd 900mhz duran 512mb ram, antix 13 32-bit
lenovo s21e - 2gb ram, celeron - antiX-16 64 bit


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 Post subject: Re: antiX-17 - stretch
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:29 pm 
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Is there enough on antiX-base as is presently is to be the cd sized iso? (There is no IceWM though).

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 Post subject: Re: antiX-17 - stretch
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:16 pm 
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anticapitalista wrote:
Is there enough on antiX-base as is presently is to be the cd sized iso? (There is no IceWM though).


I have not grabbed any 17 images yet, but the last time I installed "base" it had pretty much all I needed to make the system what I wanted or needed at the time.

It seems to me that antiX Base is a great starting point for anyone who wants to "build their own system", but may not have time to do it all at once. With antiX Base, you have at least a Web browser and a system with a simple GUI (even if it doesn't happen to have "your-favorite-GUI-of-the-day"). It's very good for building your own customized system.

To me, antiX Core is even better in that respect - it truly provides only the system image and just enough of the core utilities necessary to build the custom system of your dreams. It includes no GUI or "favorite apps", yet has all the tools necessary to build whatever you want.

For the lazy and for the beginners who do not yet have the knowledge to do all of this fancy system building and customizing, we have a pretty solid antiX Full. It's not "Full" in the sense of PCLinuxOS "Full Monty", which throws in two or three "kitchen sinks" plus a heated pool and a jacuzi as part of the "Full Monty" - all the software you can imagine, but it's also a big, bloated beast, fairly easy to install and build, but frankly a large overkill for the system model most of us use - aging hardware that might not even support some of the latest software.

So I like the thought of keeping antiX Core and antiX Base well constrained to the basics, and "branching out" just a bit with antiX Full - still keeping it relatively nimble for that 5-10 year old hardware, but useful enough that it can be used extremely effectively on that three year old system and pared down just a bit for those systems that are really "getting old".

Is this a common theme in what we're saying for the most part in this thread?

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 Post subject: Re: antiX-17 - stretch
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:49 pm 
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anticapitalista wrote:
Is there enough on antiX-base as is presently is to be the cd sized iso? (There is no IceWM though).
I don't know as I don't use it. All development work is done in antiX-Full. Is there a listing anywhere of what antiX-Base contains? I'll try to download and have a look although it may take a few days. It will be helpful to know what is there before starting.

My idea is to enable a new user to be able to preview antiX in a meaningful way in order to reach an informed decision. That will mean also including IceWM. Additionally, older kit does not always respond well to newer kernels, so the inclusion of both (the then) current and legacy kernels is really a must have to ensure the ISO can be booted on the widest range of kit. The bootloader screen will also probably need modifying to accommodate that.

There are probably 101 other things that need to be addressed that haven't even been considered yet.

The wiki indicates the 16.1 Base ISO is around 510MB. Purely guesswork on my part, I suspect there is probably plenty that can be trimmed from it. I would prefer to see the smallest ISO size consistent with the goals rather than just hitching onto the Base ISO. Having the smallest size of ISO will also give us the largest degree of future proofing.


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 Post subject: Re: antiX-17 - stretch
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:37 pm 
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Quote:
Is there a listing anywhere of what antiX-Base contains?

Board index » Official releases » antiX-16 Berta Cáceres
topic: "(info) detailed comparison: contents of FULL vs BASE version" viewtopic.php?f=58&t=6451

Someone could add a post with attachment ("installed-packages.txt" output of dpkg -l) for reference.
My post there just covered the "base vs full" differences.


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 Post subject: Re: antiX-17 - stretch
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:45 pm 
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Trying to post a listing of installed packages of the base distribution, but having problems because it won't accept .txt file, & code only takes so many characters.........still trying, hopefully will work out some way to get it posted.

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